Personal Branding, Podcast

Why Kate Toon is the Britney Spears of SEO (and How She Can Tell if You’ve “Got it”… or Not!)

As well as being a successful entrepreneur, online educator, speaker, coach, author AND podcaster, Kate Toon is someone who tells it like it is. Today’s interview is no different. From the realities of building a brand from scratch to dealing with negative comments and why she believes everyone should become the Britney Spears of their niche (and what her “Toxic” is) — this ep is full of priceless wisdom, inspiration and a few laughs.

Whether you’re a freelancer, side-hustler, experienced biz owner, or not even sure what you’re doing yet… this episode is going to provide you with priceless mindset shifts, practical tips on building your brand, plus the encouragement to know that you’re enough as you are. So what are you waiting for? Start listening!

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Read the transcription 👇

You’re listening to Episode 19. Why Kate tune is the Britney Spears of SEO and how she can tell if you’ve got it or not.

Welcome to the personal branding project. I’m your host Kat Elizabeth, an actor and personal branding coach who is obsessed with helping creative entrepreneurs like you build personal brands that change your life for good from attracting bigger opportunities, more joy and freedom in your life.

And the ability to get paid to do the things that you love most each week, I’m bringing you inspiration, practical advice and the occasional dose of tough love. So you can stop dreaming and start doing what it takes to make those dreams a reality.

Kate toon is a lot of things including a writing entrepreneur, a coach, a speaker and author and a podcaster. She has digital education businesses, including the recipe for SEO success and the clever copywriting school, both of which I’ve been involved in and have helped shape my own career trajectory, if you’d like to call it that, and has helped more than 8000 small business owners grapple the Google beast and write better content. But

Kate is really on a mission to not only help people, grow their businesses and make money, but also to help them with the mindset that comes with being an entrepreneur and needing to have your head in the game so that you can really stick it out for the long run, because as you’ve probably figured out by now, entrepreneurship is not for the faint of heart. And it’s not something that happens overnight.

So I am really excited to introduce you to Kate toon, who is both a friend of mine and also an accidental mentor. And this conversation that we have covers so much that I really believe there’s something in here for absolutely everyone.

So I really hope you listen to the whole thing and just absorb all of the wisdom and amazingness and humor that comes with Kate tune because she is very much a special human being. So with no further ado, let’s just get straight into this.

Well, hello, and welcome. It’s a welcome back. But it’s kind of the first time on this show.

Kate  02:13

Yes. Well, it’s lovely to be here. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. So

Kat Elizabeth  02:18

I mean, I’ve given you the official introduction, the by the book one but I would love to hear in your words, a little bit about how you got here because I think it’s all about context. And I hate it when people go on to a show and they you just hear about this excess and what’s happening right now and you do not see the struggle behind that because we all know the truth. We all know that other stuff goes on.

Kate  02:40

Yeah, I mean, I could start when I went out on my own as a solo business owner, but I don’t think that was the point do you know that you’re talking about because there’s definitely a tipping point. And that for me came about five years into having what was essentially a freelance copywriting business.

And that’s when I decided you know, gosh, there’s only so many hours in the day and I’ve got a child and lots of other things to do so I need to find ways of making money that don’t require me to be physically there doing a thing and that’s when I started off I guess my my Browns or I feel kind of silly talking about I don’t know, why is it funny, but I have brands I should be proud of my brands.

I should so I kicked off the cover copywriting School, which is a place to help copywriters be better copywriters have better businesses. And that’s got like a directory, a sharp job board and a conference and as I launched a conference for that as well, and a membership, and the podcast.

And then on the other side, I’ve got something called the recipe for SEO success, which is a kind of learning hub for it was SEO but now it’s kind of all things digital marketing. And again as a big cause that is smaller causes Facebook group membership, podcast events, bla bla bla. And then I guess the key tune brand has become a brand in a way as well, because that’s my, my speaking my books. I’ve got another podcast for my KTM brand. I’ve got big k tune Facebook group.

So after hiding behind my brands for a couple of years, I’ve actually trying to bring them all back to me again and actually branding under my own name. So it’s quite a journey and I’m still on it. I’m not I haven’t reached my destination yet. I don’t think

Kat Elizabeth  04:19

I don’t think we ever really do. I mean is constantly evolving. But I’m glad what you said about pulling it all together because I was going to ask because you do have so much on the go like you do have these multiple brands and you are the queen of content creation like you’re in so many different places. Do you have three podcasts? At the moment?

Kate  04:37

Yeah, what are the bit dormant but it’s coming back? Yeah, that’s my big project.

Kat Elizabeth  04:42

Okay, so the question is like, How in the world do you keep up with all this content creation and I’m guessing it didn’t start like this, like what was like your process for going okay, I need to become an authority. I need to create these things that attract people to me. And now we’re here. And like, what does that look like?

Kate  05:02

Yeah, so I mean, it’s, it’s a long path, a lot of trial and error, I’ve never been somebody who’s had a mentor or done a course, or been in a mastermind of any, any sort. So it’s all pretty much come from from me, and also my customers kind of telling me what they want, you know, you do something and people don’t buy it, and you go, Wow, maybe people don’t want that, I’ll do more of this.

So it’s been a gradual evolution, I’m very much of the mindset of Do one thing, well, really get that one plate spinning, and then start to spin another plate. And then the other plate just needs a gentle push, every now and again, you don’t need to start the plate getting there. It’s like a big, heavy flywheel. Getting it going is a lot of effort, but keeping it going is easier. And so once I’ve got those two plates spinning, then I had another one and another one.

And I never, I mean, I stretched myself but I don’t over stretch myself, there’s lots of things I could do that I don’t do, just because just because I could doesn’t mean I should you know, and, and there’s lots of side paths that I haven’t taken. But it’s just been a gradual evolution, you know, you do one podcast, it’s a hugely complicated to do, you’re learning. After a while that you get your processes down, Pat, it’s still a huge time suck, as you know, doing podcasts.

But now these days as well, I’ve got a bit of a team. So that’s been a big difference as well. So I don’t do all the bits these days are much more just kind of show up in my business is there kind of almost sounds very silly in a way. But as the creative director, I come in, and I, I do the performance, someone else takes up performance and edits it and turns it into something and makes into a post and does a graphic and shares it and blah, blah, blah. I did all that myself for a long time. But I don’t do it all.

Now. I don’t think I don’t think I got to the point where my business couldn’t be the business it wanted if I kept on trying to do everything myself. And that was a big turning point for me as well.

Kat Elizabeth  06:46

Yeah. Yeah, hearing you say this. I’m like, Yeah, I know, I’m getting to that point. Because you start to realize that certain things that you were doing that you’ve always been very proud of doing, actually keeping you back from progressing, because you’re like, I can’t be me enough.

Like I can’t show up and connect with people in the way I need to that could grow my business. But I think that transition is a really scary thing. Like, do you have any tips on how you actually really identified when was the right time? And how you started to introduce that kind of help into business?

Kate  07:17

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s, there’s never a right time, and you’ll never kind of go yesterday’s the day, I think it’s very much gradual. So I started off by having, you know, a va in my business a couple of hours a week, and then increasing that. And then thinking,

Well, I’m really I do like fiddling around with zero. But is this the best use of my time reconciling? Maybe I’ll get a bookkeeper to help with that. And am I adding value when I look at this copy that I’ve written for the third, fourth, fifth time? No, probably not. As you give that to a proofreader, or an editor, or whatever. And then, and just finding How lovely it is to hand stuff off. And then you busily work on something else, and then thing comes back, and it’s done.

You know, and you didn’t have to finish it, because I’m very good at starting things. But it’s obviously quite hard to always finish those things. But I think yes, the point, it’s the point you just mentioned there, which I think is the spot on point, when I started to find while I spent a whole day doing admin, and all I really wanted to do today was to write a really great blog post or record a podcast or go live, I’ll do that. And I haven’t done the thing that I wanted to do not even think that might even improve my business.

Just the thing that I wanted to do today, the creative thing, maybe because I’m just fannying around with admin and process and automate, you know, and that that’s the point when I was like, This is not right. This is you know, it’s it’s a hard point to get to, and it depends as well what kind of business you want to have, and whether you enjoy that kind of performance aspect or whether you really enjoy that admin. And so No, that was a really bad answer.

There’s no right moment. It’s a gradual thing. And I’ve you know, I started with a VA at two hours a week and then I increase that increase that now I have one online business manager who does about 25 hours a week, 2080 hours a week, I’ve got another VA who does 10 another VA who does 10 and a two day a week person as well as an editor, a bookkeeper, an accountant, a designer, three web developers, and two copywriters.

Most of those people of subcontractors are not working full time, but I have people I like to call it my village because I think it takes a village to build a brand. And that those those are my villages, you know, I can call upon them as I need them my Downton Abbey of staff, but they’re not all living in the house. I really

Kat Elizabeth  09:26

love that. And I think you actually made a good point because we’re often looking for the the perfect way to do something like we’re looking for the article or the course or the mentor who’s like,

Oh, yes, you just have to this is the exact point when you have to do this thing, but no business or brand is the same and we’ve all got different skill sets, we’ve got different goals, we’re trying to achieve different budgets and so to know that actually he’d sometimes need to trust yourself is probably a really important lesson to learn.

Kate  09:55

Yeah, and try it and then you can always pull back you know, you can get someone in your business to help and then If that doesn’t work out, stop, and you can start again.

You know, there’s no absolutes, you know, hiring someone in your business as an employee, that’s a bit of a commitment. And that’s taken me 11 years to get to the point where I was ready to do that. Because it’s, I can’t fire someone, right, you know, randomly, you know, and obviously, I can legally

I can give them a month’s notice, blah, blah, blah. But that would be a hard thing to do. And I don’t want to do that. So I had to really wait until I was mentally ready to be a boss.

And I was ready to have that level of detachment. It’s taken me a long time, I

Kat Elizabeth  10:33

love to ask you is that because now I mean, I really do see you as a go to for something like I see you as like the kind of the coin of copywriting and in particular, SEO copywriting, and I know you get a lot of speaking opportunities for that you speak on podcast. So you’ve really established yourself as an authority in this niche, if you can call it an ish.

What do you think it really took to get to this point, like, what were the activities and the just the things that you were doing, I guess, regularly, especially that moves the needle and got you from a nobody do someone that people actually know and recognize,

Kate  11:09

I think it’s a few key steps. Number one, if you’re, you know, thinking about your brand, obviously, you have w USP and your brand values and all that kind of stuff. But for me, the biggest one is having something to stand for have being something you believe in do or die and things you don’t believe in and being willing to talk about that.

So I created my platform of being anti SEO consultant, which is, you know, a controversial thing to do, and cause lots of ruckus, because as I, you know, most SEO consultants bamboozle you, they charge too much, they’re not transparent, you can do this yourself. It’s doable, you know, it’s not magic Juju. And that was quite at the time controversial this about six or seven years ago. Now everyone’s saying that everyone’s got a course. And everyone’s got a five day challenge and a seven day challenge and whatever.

But back then, also, as a woman, in the SEO space that marked me out, I didn’t have to choose SEO, I could have been an information architect or a content strategist, because these are all the skills I had. I chose SEO because I saw there weren’t that many women again, there’s a lot more now. But there weren’t that many women, that was a point of difference, as well.

So trying to find the gap is really important. And then having something to stand for and a platform that makes you interesting, I guess, or non vanilla. So that was really crucial. Then in terms of activities, and I think turning up not consistently in terms of being regular, and I’m always go on a Monday, I always do this, but just consistently turning up in whatever way shape or form is really important.

And again, being prepared to talk about the same thing. The example I keep using at the moment is cheesy as britney spears and toxic. You know, like that’s maybe the song that she’s both best known for, or maybe hit me Baby One More Time, I’m not sure. But for the first five years of her career, she sang those songs, maybe 100,000 times she didn’t want to she was bored of them. She wanted to sing other songs.

But she kept singing them because that’s what people wanted. And that’s what she was known for. And that’s how she built her platform. And then people would love Britney Spears not just toxic, so then she could sing anything. And that’s the thing about people being attached to a personal brand, not a company brand, is if you do it well enough, doesn’t matter what you put out there.

People buy it because they’re attached to you, not the product, the person or the product. I think seeing my toxic was one more. And then I’ve got one more. And I think it’s definitely public speaking. So a couple of years ago, I actually forced myself because I’m not a natural public speaker. I’m not a natural extrovert.

But I forced myself to speak at 37 events in one year. And of all different shapes and sizes. And I just met so many people in that year and got in front of so many people like maybe the year before I’d touched. And I don’t think physically touch because after 3000 people and then in that year three speaking maybe it rose to 10 15,000. Because then your videos also on YouTube.

And you’re also going on podcasts and my audience just went up and grew massively. And and that was the year that really I moved the needle I think

Kat Elizabeth  14:14

and love that. And I keep hearing this over and over and over again. I mean, I think when you’re getting started, it’s a little bit of like not even just from the visibility perspective and being like Who am I to step up there, which is a whole nother topic, which we’ll probably touch on.  But then where do I even start because obviously this is like it you start to build momentum.

Once you get out there more people see you and then they invite you back. But when you are at the beginning, you feel like you’ve got something to share. But you’re nobody I mean any tips for how you crack that like that first little glass ceiling.

Kate  14:47

You just have to start and obviously we are in an age we’re very lucky where we actually can perform in front of as many people as we want. I mean before if you wanted to get any kind of platform you had to try and get on telly or on the radio which is not I’m possible. But now you know, we can go on igtv. And maybe eight people he didn’t know about us yesterday will know about us today, we can do Facebook Lives, we can do LinkedIn.

And you’d be surprised because you look at the number figures and the likes and the comments, and it doesn’t seem that big. But, you know, people have said, I watched you on LinkedIn, five years, I didn’t know they were watching me. And now here they are buying my course or coming to my thing.

So I think start on the platforms that you own, you own fate, you own your Facebook page to a degree and your LinkedIn or whatever, start doing that. Obviously, you can start your own podcast, which I think whether whether people are listening or not, it gives you a lot of kudos. Because also what it allows you to do is talk to whoever you want, and invite people on and meet really interesting people who then go, she’s lovely, and and then they recommend you. So that’s good.

Go to local meetups and local business groups and just put yourself forward to speak. And then also put yourself forward to speak at the big events. Because when I applied to say, for example, to speak at Yoast con, which is a big SEO conference in in Holland, you know, with all my heroes speaking,

I didn’t think they’d pick me. I mean, who am I really in the world of SEO, there’s hundreds of people. And they did pick me, you know, whether they already got four applications from people, I don’t know, but I got picked. So you just don’t know. I think we, we kind of stopped ourselves before we started, we think, Oh, it’s not going to happen. I won’t get picked. No one will want me. But you just don’t know. You’ve got to give it a pop. You know, you’ve got to be brave, be more sharp? Yes.

Kat Elizabeth  16:31

Yeah. And I mean, I guess what do we have to lose? Like, is it I mean, we are going to have to face so many rejections moving forward, if we want to be a personal brand, or have our own business? And like, Is it really going to kill you to have one more person say, No,

Kate  16:46

no, I mean, you know, from your acting career that, you know, it’s 99% rejection and 1% acceptance, you know, and it’s, that’s true on online, too, I think it’s a lot higher percentage, though, to be honest, it was much more opportunity to build a brand and to have a successful business,

I don’t think it’s half as competitive. So you know, it’s not as hard as acting. So

Kat Elizabeth  17:08

totally, totally agree. And that’s the thing, I think, with your own business or brand, whatever it is, you’re trying to grow, because like you were saying, these platforms that we supposedly own, give us this chance to just talk with no one telling us to shut up. Like the fact is, if they don’t want to hear us, they’re not going to listen, and that’s totally fine. But you don’t have to get permission to start a podcast, start a YouTube channel get on igtv.

Kate  17:31

Yeah, and it just becomes infectious is that there’s a book, I can never remember the title of it. But you know, it’s like falling in love is like falling asleep. It’s takes a while, and then it happens all at once. It’s an awful quote, I’ll find it for you. And that’s kind of like what happens with the Browns you won’t. It’s not like one day you wake up and everyone knows who you are. It’s a creep.

But then there is a point where it suddenly seems to gain momentum. And people like, you know, you go to events and people like, oh, you’re Katie and and stuff like that. And I’m like what you know, and that was a really weird year because it happened within the space of a year, the beginning of the year, that didn’t happen.

By the end of the people were asking if they could have selfies with me, you know? And I know that sounds ridiculous, because who would want a selfie with me? But did you know that it happened in a year? And it really was a lot to do with just turning up again, and again, not looking at your audience because not worrying what people saw but just turning up and banging my drum singing my toxic until people just think you were people down?

Don’t need? The sounds got away by your fear.

Kat Elizabeth  18:31

Yeah, show that that’s what it was. Yeah, it had nothing to do with your knowledge or wisdom or any of that. Like, I’ll just shut up already. You take my money.

Kate  18:39

Yeah, exactly. That’s what it really was hoping.

Kat Elizabeth  18:42

I’m so glad you touched on that. I literally just published an episode on that on the 1%. I don’t know if you’ve read the book, The slight edge. And he talks about the 1% showing up every day. And eventually you build the compound interest. So you don’t see the result.

You don’t see the result goes on and on. Right. And then one day, like, hold on. This is different to yesterday, but it wasn’t only one activity that actually made that happen. It was the Yeah, this sum total of its parts, I guess.

Kate  19:08

Yeah. And I’ve still got a way to go, you know, like, I you know, I’m like the Beatles. The next thing I kind of want to do is crack America. That will be interesting to me. Because, you know, Australia is only so big. I’m starting now I’m going off to the UK to do a tour, which I’m very excited. I know I’ve got I’ve done like a poster like a Sex Pistols poster.

It’s very cool. And obviously I am English shy. There’s a resonance there. America just feels vast and full of humans. But you know, I think there’s an opportunity for a middle aged SEO copywriter to go out there and do something I don’t know. I’ll find my way. So it’s still it’s still a journey, and I’m no Seth Godin.

I know Pat Flynn, but yeah, it’s it’s enjoyable. It does make life easier when you have a recognizable brand. It just takes away some of the awkwardness towards To remind people to not be thinking who she but it’s her. It’s and whether they think it’s her. Oh, yeah, at least they know you. It makes a big it does make a difference.

It makes things a lot easier opens more doors obviously. Yeah. And yeah, you get to choose the doors you want open, which is nicer as well.

Kat Elizabeth  20:22

Yeah. I guess how was it though, when it didn’t feel like that. I mean, when you were trying to get on stages and you weren’t creating videos, and you really didn’t feel like yet, who am I to do this? And you were nobody, like, when did you have mindset blocks around? Or should I even put this thing out there?

Kate  20:39

I heard mindset blocks about especially with SEO, because it’s very competitive. And people are very catty, it’s an amazingly bitchy industry, considering most of the people in it are men. And I was worried that someone would say, That’s not right, you’ve got it wrong, you don’t know what you’re talking about. I wasn’t worried about showing up and being me because I guess I always focus on my customers. And I knew that they wanted to help with something.

So if I was helping them and other people saw it, it didn’t matter, you know, to me, so I also have somebody that like, if I write something down on my to do list, I just do it. I don’t overthink it. You know, I don’t wake up in the morning and debate whether I’m going to do a Facebook Live or not. And whether I should what I should say or whatever I just if it says do a Facebook Live, I do a Facebook Live, and if it’s good or it’s bad, I don’t care. Because by tomorrow, that’ll be down someone’s feed, no one will ever see you again.

So I’m very much just to do a and but believe me, when I was asked to speak at the big conferences in the US and Holland, the imposter syndrome was deep and crevasse, like and bottomless. And then I did it, and to conquer that now I’m like, if I can do that, I can do anything. And you said you get to the point now where I’m like, if someone does say that’s wrong, I’ll be like, great.

That’s a really interesting opinion. Thanks for sharing it. This is my opinion, opinion, my experience, you can’t really say that my experience is wrong. It’s just my opinion, you can disagree with it, but neither of us is wrong or right, you know, facts, the facts are very blurry, and most things and it’s all about interpretation, and I’m just giving my interpretation.

So I’m alright, you know, I’m not gonna get heckled too much.

Kat Elizabeth  22:23

I’m glad you said that, though. Because I have I’ve gone through cycles, even with my YouTube channel, from the beginning, I kind of would come and it would go, where I’d be like, Who am I to be talking about this? What if someone disagrees with me? Like I, I’ve really had my career going my way and like, someone could be watching this and going, this is an absolute joke. But then you’re right. It is my experience, I was telling the truth of how I interpreted it, I have a right to talk about that. And like, like, it’ll lump it. I mean, it is what it is.

Kate  22:52

Yeah. And everyone feels like that. And everyone is the same. Like, you know, Oprah Winfrey, Seth Godin, these hugely famous people that still just stay in there. It’s so American, but they’re just stating their truth. You know, they’re just saying what they think it’s just that people wanted to hear it. And they wanted to hear it more than other people’s.

So, and that’s been the other really grounding thing about, you know, the needle move you talked about, about that self confidence thing is meeting your heroes, and meeting people who you’ve looked up to, and realizing, and we all know this, obviously, because I’m rational, that they’re just people. And also sometimes that deeply flawed, I met an author of a very popular book, and who I was very excited to meet. And I’d been reading his blog, and I met him in person.

He was really, really not particularly nice, and quite underwhelming. And. And it was, it was wonderful. It was wonderful to see that this person who’s so successful and done other things. wasn’t, it was it wasn’t 100%. I don’t know what that means. But it was like, Oh, great. He’s flawed. Brilliant. That means I can be flawed, too. You know, he was probably just having a bad day. And I’m sure he was lovely. But it was wonderful. If he’d been amazing in person, it would have been devastating to know. Yeah.

Kat Elizabeth  24:12

Yeah, I mean, you are. For me, when I think about people that are real and transparent on social media, which is refreshing and rare. You’re definitely the one of the people that I think off and and I love it, like you’re just you. And I know that whether we’re talking like this right now, or I’m reading one of your articles, I’m getting the exact same version of you, which I think is important.

But I’d love to know, like, have you had to deal with any flak from people who see these posts that are real and are a bit jarring sometimes because we’re used to this idea of, oh, the professional marketer is like, let’s say, Amy Porterfield, who is so polished, and even when she talks down to herself, she does it in a polished way. Like how do people take you and what’s that felt like knowing that you get responses?

Kate  24:57

I mean, I’m not very glossy and I’m, you know, my hair. isn’t as beautiful as Marie Forleo is or Amy’s? But, and that appeals to a certain demographic. You know, I think it appeals to other people who who wish they could be as wonderful as Amy Porterfield, but can’t, you know, maybe I’m the poor woman’s, Amy Porterfield, and but a number I find to be that you know what I mean?

I think the flack has been, I’ve had some real negativity. I’ve had some real trolls, especially with the whole in the whole SEO world, a lot of very negative stuff from when I started down. And I was in groups asking questions I was trying to learn, but you weren’t there to learn you were there to show off.

So you know, men don’t ask for directions. It’s a huge cliche, but they don’t want to show that they didn’t know about a certain topic, because that would make them look weak, where I was like, No, no, if I don’t know about this topic, and I need to know answers, so I’m going to ask you guys, and then I’ll know and i’ll be anyway, that was hard.

I’ve had random a lot of comments about my appearance. And I used to be a lot heavier. And I used to get a lot of, you know, fat cow comments. And then I lost weight. And people sent comments saying that it kind of sold out by losing weight. I’ve had people saying, Why is your Instagram got so many selfies on it? And I’m like, I do want to nine because I was told to do what a nine by somebody. And I was like, look at cat, she’s got a lot to sell. So yes, and then you get random people who say things like I got one the other was a while ago, it’s one of my favorites.

I’ve got it. I’ve got it cut out on my wall, your you too ugly to send me emails. I love that one. You too ugly? Oh, my gosh, I’m unsubscribing because of your filthy potty mouth, I love that, Oh,

Kat Elizabeth  26:45

see that I know, you’re gonna be like, well, you obviously just can’t handle it.

Kate  26:50

And these days, when someone sends me anything negative like that, I’m delighted. Because I screenshot it, put it on a Canva background, whack my logo on it and share on social media. And it means I haven’t had to come up with a social media post today. Thanks. Thanks, person. And we can all and we can all have a laugh about it. And again, showing that showing the negativity, I think is transparent as well, showing that they’re not having a good time all the time.

People don’t like me, and how I deal with them, people not liking me. And the negative comments and stuff is part of this whole personal brand thing, you know, another reflection of your brand values and your brand personality, how you deal with it. And some people never show that side of it, it looks like they’re just having a brilliant a whale of a time and everyone loves them. But I guarantee that’s not true.

They’re just not telling you that bit. So I think telling that bit is super important. And part of my brand value, because I’d say one of my brand values is being honest, a good or bad, you know, and it hasn’t impacted people’s ability to take me seriously or to buy my things or to think I’m a professional, you know, sharing a photo of me having just poured coffee on my own boob before I’m about to present in front of 200 people doesn’t ruin anything at all, you know it that taking away the gloss does not undermine the brand at all for me, it might do for someone else.

But yeah, it doesn’t doesn’t impact me. And we’re gonna so much good advice.

Kat Elizabeth  28:13

First of all the content creation hack, screenshot and just put a nice background. I mean, hello. Yeah. You’re so right. I mean, I think about my client journey with you in inverted commas. It sounds so wonky, but thanks, I shouldn’t have said that word. That’s bleep i t out. I’ll do my first bleep of the podcast.

Kate  28:36

Oh, yay.

Kat Elizabeth  28:38

Oh, yeah, check the the explicit Bob

Kate  28:42

 Yeah, suddenly you’ll be popular.

Kat Elizabeth  28:45

We’ll see I’m just waiting so that I can screenshot. But yeah, I mean, if you had not been you the way you are, might be journey with you probably would have looked completely different. Because I was drawn to you like I some context for the listeners out there. I joined your copywriting community when I didn’t even really know what a copywriter did, in all honesty, and I had just quit my job at an ad ad agency had no money was freaking out. And I was lost and confused. I was not drawn to the Amy Porterfield during that time, because they had it all together and they weren’t being honest enough. And I was like,

Whoa, this is too much for me. Whereas you had this like entry level opening of like, Come as you are, no matter what you know, or who you know, and we’re just like will help give you a leg up. And this is now a shout out to you because people need to know the impact that you’ve had on my life. If I had not had you at that time. I do not believe we would be talking on these podcasts right now. There would not be a podcast I would not still be self employed.

Kate  29:56

I don’t I read I 190 thousand percent don’t believe that’s true. Because before you even join the community I remember seeing cat she was the bombshell that I don’t if you share these things with your other say no. I remember seeing that and just being like, wow, this woman is way cool. She wrote and performed our own show and took it around like, what? And she’s like 12 like Who does that? So she joined my community and I was quite intimidated because I was She’s like a proper person. Oh my gosh samsara thing

Kat Elizabeth  30:29

its all comes down to the social media, though, like behind the scenes that show nearly killed me like I gained 20 kilos. Like, always all the money that was gone. The anxiety and becoming a copywriter was like my last ditch attempt to be like, can I support myself? some way?  I was in such a dark headspace.

When I joined the copywriting group and the opportunities that was given to me and the support and the acceptance of just like wherever people were at to be able to join was, I had to have that for like a good year of just that encouragement and that safe space, to stop believing in myself again, to then go back on this journey of because if I’d ended with bombshell, like, I wouldn’t have started doing anything else again, because it was so heartbreaking and traumatic for me, like, the photos might have looked pretty, but like that was about it.

Like in my head, it was the biggest disaster of my life. It’s not funny. It’s not funny, because it is so impressive from the outside. And this is why we need to have these conversations because, you know, other people are looking and going ever look at her now. She’s got a podcast, and she was really good in the YouTube videos. You know, it’s crazy, isn’t it? And we’re, the more that we can share the behind the scenes, the better. But yeah, I don’t know. Of course, an interesting wasn’t, isn’t it?

Would you have taken the same path? I still think he would. Maybe it might have taken you longer. But I still think I do inherently think that if people have it in them, they have it in them. And equally on the flip, which is quite hard. Some people don’t I’ve just had a read a colleague had to have quite a firm talk with them and go like you’ve been talking about doing this thing for a couple of years. And we’ve I’ve helped you have done this, we’ve done this, we’ve done this, you’ve started that you start that, but you haven’t done it, you really not done it.

And maybe you need to ask yourself, do you really want to do it? Do you want the struggle. And in the in the great book by Mark Manson, the subtle art of not giving a leap. He talks a lot. It’s very vigorous, but he talks a lot about you know, the people who run marathons are not the ones who enjoy breaking through the tape at the end of the marathon.

They’re the ones who actually do get pleasure or getting up at 5am in the morning and running in the dark. They enjoy the struggle. You know, and I think the truth is with you and me we we do enjoy the struggle we do. We pretend we don’t and we whinge about we were just winning before this podcast, both of us went went so hard that she liked Yeah, yeah. We do enjoy the struggle. We enjoy turning up each day doing this thing. And yeah, the love the end result. That’s great, too. But I’m at my happiest honestly, when I’m in my office tapping away writing content.

That’s the bit I really love. Yes, I love being on stage performing doing that, whatever. But that’s once in a while and pretty exhausting. I actually enjoy the the struggle a bit more the kind of behind the scenes.But you know,  it is such a good point. Yeah. And I’ve said it on my YouTube channel to other actors that if you cannot find a way of enjoying the process, and you just sit there dreaming about the day that you’re a famous actor in Hollywood, you need to get out of the industry now.

And that’s one of my, what I like I’m such a like, I don’t want to upset anyone but it’s one of my very strong opinions of like yet when you are not prepared to struggle, and you can’t find a way to enjoy your life while you don’t have the the famous snus. That’s terrible, the celebrities don’t smell bad, and the money, then you are never going to get where you want to be and you won’t be happy. Even if you do get there.

Kate  34:02

That’s absolutely it’s you have to find enjoyment in that bit. You know, like find enjoyment in turning up at the audition and just being on set and being around people. That’s an enjoyable day, whether you win the audition or not, you know, you’re not you enjoy launching your course, and putting all the stuff out there. And that’s an enjoyable thing to do.

Even if only three people sign up. Yeah, because you’re so right. If you don’t get satisfaction out of that, then it will never be enough. When you get 20 people signing up, you’re 140 when you get 40 or 180 when you get 80 or one 100 and you keep moving the goalposts you have to enjoy the launch, not the people who sign up.

That’s so weird, because it sounds counterintuitive, because we’re doing it for the money and the people and whatever. But yeah, it’s so so true. I stand for that to cat and I don’t care about people. Yes, good. toxic.

Kat Elizabeth  34:51

Absolutely. This is like a mic drop moment. I feel we’ll wrap it up on this note because it’s so good. But I do want to ask you one question that I asked everybody on the podcast. So if you woke up tomorrow and everything was gone, everything that you’d built around your businesses and your brands, I know try not to have a heart attack at the thought of that.

Where would you actually start? Like if you were going to try and achieve the same kind of thing? What would be your starting point? Knowing that you know, today’s day and age like it’s probably going to look different when you did start?

Kate  35:22

Well, actually, as you were saying that I wasn’t looking shocked, horrified, did you not see eye smiling? Like, in a way I would kind of like it, I’d love for it or not to be here, because then I could rebuild it slightly quicker, slightly easier. There’s a long part of you know, I said earlier, I’d never done a course or a mastermind that was stubborn and stupid. I could have learned all of this a lot quicker if I just asked other people how to do it. And where would I start?

You know, if I wanted to build a personal brand, again, I would absolutely start with a website. I know that sounds really obvious, I don’t want to build my platform on someone else’s platform. So I’m not going to build my brand on Instagram, I’m not going to build my brand on LinkedIn, there are there are tools that I will use. But I build, I build my website, and I build a striking website with a very strong tone of voice, I’d get some amazing headshots that are unusual and different to what everyone else had.

I mean, it depends what I’m building a personal brand to be, but I think those steps are the same whether you want to be, you know, celebrity milkmen, or celebrity author, you know, I don’t think it matters. Having that strong platform is your island, from which you can then start taking over the world. And then I think I would, yeah, huge fan of podcasts.

So one of the first things I do, rather than writing 360 blog posts, or posting 7000 images on Instagram, I’d start a podcast, and really push that and invite the best people in the world I can think of on it. And they will come because people love to be interviewed, and that and then start to use that as my platform. And then I’d start to you know, speak and do all those good things as well.

Kat Elizabeth  36:53

Oh, such a good answer. And I’m glad I mean, I totally agree, it does make me feel good to know that my approach would be the same as K tunes. I’m like, Oh, I’m so clever. Like, you’re absolutely right, you have to own the content. And the fact is podcasts these days seem to have such a high impact and not just reaching a huge audience, but also in the influence that you have the relationship you build with your listeners, there seems to be so much more trust involved so quickly, when you compare it to videos and blog posts.

Kate  37:23

It’s weird, isn’t it, I think that I put it down to the fact that it’s very intimate, you know, very intimate someone’s in your ear. And you’re not seeing them is actually quite powerful. I think as well, for some reason. We’re all we’re all, you know, innately creatures that like to have stories told to us, we’re sitting around the fire, you know, thousands of years ago, stories are what entertained us. And we were desperate for that again, and it’s very visually busy world, the simplicity of just the voice in your ear is very soothing. And also I find, I listen to podcasts.

Generally, when I’m doing something nice when I’m walking the dog, or now I’ve got these special earphones so I can listen to podcasts when I’m swimming. So I’m in my happy place. And you’re with me, you know, and it’s just me and you. And therefore this relationship grows, where you take a bullet for the person.

I mean, I listen to this American life, Ira IRA, I love IRA, I would do anything for him. Because I’ve spent hundreds and hundreds of hours listening to him in all over the world. You know, I tell you, I’ve taken him to Holland, I’ve taken him to England, he’s been with me in the bath. You know. I was recently at an event, an event and pointed someone in the audience say You look like a very nice man, would you like to spend 15 hours with me? And you’re like, looked really appalled. And I said,

Well, you can’t right now. But you could if you read my book, and I gave him my books as another powerful way to sit with someone, or you can listen to my podcast and spend 100 hours of me you know, it’s cheesy, but it works. You know what other ways you get to spend that much time with another human being podcasting and book reading, I think are a wonderful way to go. Well, okay, so I love you.

And I’m sure at this point, everyone else that’s heard your voice loves you as well. where’s the best place for people to come hang out with you online? Luckily, if you type k tune into Google, you’ll find one of my million billion websites or podcasts but cake tune.com is my hub site is my brand sites. You can go and see if I’m actually done any of the things I’ve talked about on the podcast.

Kat Elizabeth  39:27

Sounds good. Sounds like a challenge. Yes. Cool. Well, thank you so much again, and hopefully we’ll we’ll chat again soon. Or Ah,

Kate  39:35

thank you. Bye.


Kat is a copywriter, brand & messaging strategist personal branding coach and the founder of The Personal Branding Project whose mission is to help you go from best-kept secret to in-demand brand.


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